Hi all, this might not be like the normal discussions around here. I myself thought of Fantom as a beautiful language, yet wouldn't building a business on top of an "obscure" language like this would be pretty hard and disadvantageous? Mostly when hiring programmers?
Hope you can share your views, thanks.
alperFri 27 Jul 2012
ES Ikhwan,
Actually I look at it at different perceptive.
Because it is beautiful, good programmers appreciate the language itself. They work harder on projects. They enjoy their time spent on it.
Also with a few programmers, you can create miracles with this languages. It really speeds up engineering vs other languages.
Find me on Gtalk we can discuss further.
By the way, I am biased. We are working on server application and a desktop application with Fantom.
brianFri 27 Jul 2012
I think all development today is based on pulling in lots of various dependencies:
virtual machine
programming language
tools
tons and tons of libraries
The language matters, but so does the libraries you use too.
In all cases, you have to consider getting/training/and keeping happy developers who will use these technologies. I think in the end if your business is churning out code with cheap, ready to go developers you pick a language like Java, C#, or maybe VB. For organizations who want developers who pride themselves working with more elegant languages, you probably end up with a more obscure language like Fantom, Clojure, Scala, F#, etc. The problem with those types of developers is that they are very opinionated.
And you have to consider the long term maintainability of those technologies. Who is the community, do they fix bugs, will the whole thing be around in ten years. I would hope that any body involved with Fantom would see this is a safe bet. The language has been steadily maturing since 2005 and our entire business is built around Fantom as the core layer of our technology stack. I personally think it is better to bet on key people who you trust than big, bumbling companies that often kill technology projects for political or business reasons.
And you have to consider the availability of libraries you need in your projects. This would probably be Fantom's weakest area compared to some of the other "niche JVM langs". Any language built on the JVM obviously gets to suck in the existing ecosystem of Java libraries. I personally think most of them are bloated crap, but lots of people love to use them :-) I personally think Fantom has all the core stuff you need built into it. We don't pull hardly any third party libraries into our software, we just use the Fantom core. But that is probably an opinion that isn't consistent with today's style of enterprise software which is based on gluing tons of different stuff together.
MenguFri 27 Jul 2012
there are some things you need to be concerned about.
1) language must have frequent updates whenever needed.
2) language must have enough core features and libraries meeting your needs.
3) language has enough tools to work with.
4) language must have enough docs and has decent support.
5) language has enough skilled people.
ikhwanhayatFri 27 Jul 2012
Based my experience lurking in the forum, commitment from by the developers (Brian/Andy) is stellar :)
@brian But that is probably an opinion that isn't consistent with today's style of enterprise software which is based on gluing tons of different stuff together.
I'm surprised with the amount of stuff been covered out of the box, and the speed of development. Don't you guys sleep at all? But I think we cannot escape from the need of inviting more contributors to do those fringe stuff like to work with PDF, image processing, etc. Having persistent feel and quality across contributed libraries is important, but rather hard to get. But some communities like Ruby seems to got it right.
Back on hiring people, I think if the company can work remotely that would be huge plus right? Depending on local talents is no dice at the moment. Why not you guys setup a jobs board or something?
brianSat 28 Jul 2012
In the end, I think if you like programming in Fantom, then likely you'll find other good developers who like it too :-)
Depending on local talents is no dice at the moment.
I think any good programmer can spin up a new language pretty quickly. But also see post 1835 where lots of people posted where they located (all over really). You are in Malaysia? I actually work with a few people from there myself.
ttmrichterSat 28 Jul 2012
Every language in use today was once an "esoteric" language. No exceptions. And every one of these had people making claims that it would be bad for a business to use such an esoteric language for pretty much the reasons given here.
C
C++
Java
C#
PHP
Python
Ruby
Erlang
Lisp
Prolog
Forth
…
Every language I've named above has, at one point or another (some even right now!) been called "esoteric" and been considered by (wannabe) pundits as a poor basis for doing business. Yet every language above has (note the verb tense!) multi-million to multi-billion dollar businesses based upon them.
Never make your business decisions based upon what the masses say. Make your business decisions based upon your needs, your resources and your tools' capabilities. Sometimes this does mean you should avoid "esoteric" languages (like Fantom). More times, however, this means that your "esoteric" language is instead your ace in the hole that gives you a competitive edge.
MenguSat 28 Jul 2012
More times, however, this means that your "esoteric" language is instead your ace in the hole that gives you a competitive edge.
i believe that is true. paul graham once said the secret weapon was not the application they built but what they had built the application with, lisp.
ikhwanhayatSat 28 Jul 2012
You are in Malaysia? I actually work with a few people from there myself.
Yes, I am. Are they into Fantom? Would love to get in contact with them. I've only heard one or two people in the community talked about it. Ruby, Python and NodeJS are all rage right now here. Also, many still stuck with PHP.
ahhatemSun 29 Jul 2012
My only problem with Fantom right now is that despite that it is an amazing platform with amazing extremely helpful community, every part of the language is still mainly maintained by one person. The core is still maintained by Brian, the JS compiler and webstuff by Andy, Tales by Kaushik.... One person for each part.... That means that If any of them for some reason became busy and stopped maintaining his part I would have to maintain it my self.... and so currently fantom is a good choice for me for short to mid term projects... not for anything that will take more than a couple of month... unless we are willing to maintain any part we need ourselves..
ortizgiraldoTue 31 Jul 2012
I totally agree with Ahhatem. At the end of last year I was playing with different "esoteric" languages as ikhwanhayat called them. I had the chance to play with Fantom for a week as well as Opalang, Rebol and Xtend, among others.
Given my Java background and all features of the language, Fantom was the one that I liked most. It is nifty, succinct and beautiful. I was very excited about it and kept an eye on it since. But as Ahhatem says, it seems that every part of it depends on one person.
I really wish to see this beautiful language gaining more momentum. Lately I've been playing with Lua, coding directly on the iPad, using Codea (formerly known as Codify: http://twolivesleft.com/codea/) and I would like to see something similar made for Fantom for the Android market or even for the iPad if the JVM was available on it.
Hopefully Andy and Brian will find a way to open the development of the language to a larger team.
brianWed 1 Aug 2012
every part of the language is still mainly maintained by one person.
I guess I would temper that with the thought that almost all successful software projects are driven by a strong leader with a clear vision. And typically when that leader leaves, the project more than often than not flounders. This project is essentially a lifelong project for me and is the foundation of my software company. So I'd stress that "become too busy or stop maintaining" is a negligible risk for Fantom.
ikhwanhayat Fri 27 Jul 2012
Hi all, this might not be like the normal discussions around here. I myself thought of Fantom as a beautiful language, yet wouldn't building a business on top of an "obscure" language like this would be pretty hard and disadvantageous? Mostly when hiring programmers?
Hope you can share your views, thanks.
alper Fri 27 Jul 2012
ES Ikhwan,
Actually I look at it at different perceptive.
Because it is beautiful, good programmers appreciate the language itself. They work harder on projects. They enjoy their time spent on it.
Also with a few programmers, you can create miracles with this languages. It really speeds up engineering vs other languages.
Find me on Gtalk we can discuss further.
By the way, I am biased. We are working on server application and a desktop application with Fantom.
brian Fri 27 Jul 2012
I think all development today is based on pulling in lots of various dependencies:
The language matters, but so does the libraries you use too.
In all cases, you have to consider getting/training/and keeping happy developers who will use these technologies. I think in the end if your business is churning out code with cheap, ready to go developers you pick a language like Java, C#, or maybe VB. For organizations who want developers who pride themselves working with more elegant languages, you probably end up with a more obscure language like Fantom, Clojure, Scala, F#, etc. The problem with those types of developers is that they are very opinionated.
And you have to consider the long term maintainability of those technologies. Who is the community, do they fix bugs, will the whole thing be around in ten years. I would hope that any body involved with Fantom would see this is a safe bet. The language has been steadily maturing since 2005 and our entire business is built around Fantom as the core layer of our technology stack. I personally think it is better to bet on key people who you trust than big, bumbling companies that often kill technology projects for political or business reasons.
And you have to consider the availability of libraries you need in your projects. This would probably be Fantom's weakest area compared to some of the other "niche JVM langs". Any language built on the JVM obviously gets to suck in the existing ecosystem of Java libraries. I personally think most of them are bloated crap, but lots of people love to use them :-) I personally think Fantom has all the core stuff you need built into it. We don't pull hardly any third party libraries into our software, we just use the Fantom core. But that is probably an opinion that isn't consistent with today's style of enterprise software which is based on gluing tons of different stuff together.
Mengu Fri 27 Jul 2012
there are some things you need to be concerned about.
1) language must have frequent updates whenever needed.
2) language must have enough core features and libraries meeting your needs.
3) language has enough tools to work with.
4) language must have enough docs and has decent support.
5) language has enough skilled people.
ikhwanhayat Fri 27 Jul 2012
Based my experience lurking in the forum, commitment from by the developers (Brian/Andy) is stellar :)
I'm surprised with the amount of stuff been covered out of the box, and the speed of development. Don't you guys sleep at all? But I think we cannot escape from the need of inviting more contributors to do those fringe stuff like to work with PDF, image processing, etc. Having persistent feel and quality across contributed libraries is important, but rather hard to get. But some communities like Ruby seems to got it right.
Back on hiring people, I think if the company can work remotely that would be huge plus right? Depending on local talents is no dice at the moment. Why not you guys setup a jobs board or something?
brian Sat 28 Jul 2012
In the end, I think if you like programming in Fantom, then likely you'll find other good developers who like it too :-)
I think any good programmer can spin up a new language pretty quickly. But also see post 1835 where lots of people posted where they located (all over really). You are in Malaysia? I actually work with a few people from there myself.
ttmrichter Sat 28 Jul 2012
Every language in use today was once an "esoteric" language. No exceptions. And every one of these had people making claims that it would be bad for a business to use such an esoteric language for pretty much the reasons given here.
Every language I've named above has, at one point or another (some even right now!) been called "esoteric" and been considered by (wannabe) pundits as a poor basis for doing business. Yet every language above has (note the verb tense!) multi-million to multi-billion dollar businesses based upon them.
Never make your business decisions based upon what the masses say. Make your business decisions based upon your needs, your resources and your tools' capabilities. Sometimes this does mean you should avoid "esoteric" languages (like Fantom). More times, however, this means that your "esoteric" language is instead your ace in the hole that gives you a competitive edge.
Mengu Sat 28 Jul 2012
i believe that is true. paul graham once said the secret weapon was not the application they built but what they had built the application with, lisp.
ikhwanhayat Sat 28 Jul 2012
Yes, I am. Are they into Fantom? Would love to get in contact with them. I've only heard one or two people in the community talked about it. Ruby, Python and NodeJS are all rage right now here. Also, many still stuck with PHP.
ahhatem Sun 29 Jul 2012
My only problem with Fantom right now is that despite that it is an amazing platform with amazing extremely helpful community, every part of the language is still mainly maintained by one person. The core is still maintained by Brian, the JS compiler and webstuff by Andy, Tales by Kaushik.... One person for each part.... That means that If any of them for some reason became busy and stopped maintaining his part I would have to maintain it my self.... and so currently fantom is a good choice for me for short to mid term projects... not for anything that will take more than a couple of month... unless we are willing to maintain any part we need ourselves..
ortizgiraldo Tue 31 Jul 2012
I totally agree with Ahhatem. At the end of last year I was playing with different "esoteric" languages as ikhwanhayat called them. I had the chance to play with Fantom for a week as well as Opalang, Rebol and Xtend, among others.
Given my Java background and all features of the language, Fantom was the one that I liked most. It is nifty, succinct and beautiful. I was very excited about it and kept an eye on it since. But as Ahhatem says, it seems that every part of it depends on one person.
I really wish to see this beautiful language gaining more momentum. Lately I've been playing with Lua, coding directly on the iPad, using Codea (formerly known as Codify: http://twolivesleft.com/codea/) and I would like to see something similar made for Fantom for the Android market or even for the iPad if the JVM was available on it.
Hopefully Andy and Brian will find a way to open the development of the language to a larger team.
brian Wed 1 Aug 2012
I guess I would temper that with the thought that almost all successful software projects are driven by a strong leader with a clear vision. And typically when that leader leaves, the project more than often than not flounders. This project is essentially a lifelong project for me and is the foundation of my software company. So I'd stress that "become too busy or stop maintaining" is a negligible risk for Fantom.